Focusing on a Niche Market in Remodeling with Ted Nemeth from PME 360

Focusing on a Niche Market in Remodeling with Ted Nemeth

Ron: Good morning!

Welcome to the PME360 Powering Business Growth Show, where each session we discuss proven ways with our industry experts to help power growth for your remodeling business.

Our guests have proven themselves within their niche and are the experts and leaders in their space.  Please listen in as our guests and experts provide practical tips that you can immediately apply to help power growth for your small to mid-sized local remodeling business.

I’m your host Ron Rodi, Jr. 

Joining me today is the incomparable Ryan Paul Adams. As the founder and CEO of PME360, Ryan and his team helped power growth online for small to mid-sized local businesses with the focus on the home remodeling and improvement space.

PME360 provides effective, affordable, easy to understand, complete marketing systems that help power growth for your business and do it quickly.

Ryan has developed several companies online and off, and has helped generate millions in revenue for local businesses over the past 8 years.  Entrepreneur, author, founder, family man of 2 (soon to be 3), Mr. Ryan Paul Adams.

Ryan, good morning!

Ryan: Hey Ron! Thank you. Good morning!

Ron: Also very excited to have with us today, founder and CEO of ReVisions Remodeling, Ted Nemeth.

It is possible to say that Ted started building when he was just 12 years old. In the 6th grade, Ted remodeled his parent’s entire basement with framing, paneling, wiring and a dropped ceiling.

There were a couple of learning moments along the way. But for the most part, his project was a solo effort. 

For Ted, the building bug continued on up to college when he took a position in Linworth Lumber Company – a division of the Strait & Lamp Group.  

During his time at Linworth, Ted had the opportunity to learn various aspects of the business from the best builders and remodelers in Central Ohio.  Pairing that with education form numerous national suppliers and organizations such as the BIA (Building Industry Associates of Central Ohio), NAHB (National Association of Home Builders), Andersen Windows, Eagle Windows, Dixie Pacific, James Hardie and Therma Tru just to name a few, Ted found the right time to move into business for himself in 2006.

In September of that year, ReVisions Remodeling was formed through a partnership with Dan Stout. Today, Ted serves as the CEO of ReVisions Remodeling and is instrumental in plotting the direction and shaping its future to be an exemplary model of customer service and value in the remodeling industry.

It is my pleasure to introduce our close friend, Mr. Ted Nemeth.

Ted, good morning! How are you?

Ted: Good morning!

Ryan: Good morning Ted!

Ted: Good morning Ryan! Good morning Ron!

Ron: Thank you for joining us. That’s a great story, the remodeling of the basement when you were just 12 years old.

Ryan: Yeah, love it.

Ted: I don’t know what my parents were thinking to be honest.

Ryan: That’s how you learn. That’s how you get it.

Ron: At what point did they realize you were down there remodeling the basement?

Ted: I think they knew what was going on because they actively participated buying the circular saws, nails and so forth.

But they might have wondered what was going on when we blew a circuit down in the basement.

That was one of the learning moments when we brought in the electrician. But well, it was an interesting experience and it was something I’ve always wanted to do and I think I begged long enough and they finally relented and gave in.

Ron: That’s fantastic! It’s actually a nice story about hearing people know exactly what they wanted to do at an early age in life.

You get a lot of people that don’t quite know what they want to do. So, we really appreciate having you with us today.

Ted, tell us a little bit about the business, about your role and position.  I know we talked about it a little bit about it in the intro. But I’d like to hear it from you. Tell us a little bit more about Revisions.

Ted: Well, Revisions Remodeling is a full service remodeling company. And what that really means is we’ve done everything from the basic simple kitchen, bath remodels, window and door replacements, additions on houses. We really go to the builder area of remodeling. 

But more recently, we have decided that our strengths are really on the outside of the house.

And so we are taking a much stronger focus on exterior renovations to homes. So trying, not necessarily to do additions and so forth, but rather window replacements, siding replacements, door replacements, that sort. 

We are trying really to focus the company on a niche segment of the remodeling market.

Ron: In the name of course of business remodeling and a lot of other businesses have a lot of general contracting field. 

They try to be all things to all people. It sounds like you’ve really created an exterior replacement niche and that’s really your focus. Is that correct?

Ted: Yeah it is.

It is hard in these economic times to turn down jobs that are not focused on the exteriors. But we’ve really found that it’s where we excel and that’s where we can bring a tremendous amount of value to our clients and our customers. 

We are not abandoning the ReVisions Remodeling name which is more of a general name but we definitely take a distinct exterior focus when we are marketing and talking to homeowners.

Ron: So outside of that niche, what do you feel that you do really well that differentiates you to competitors?

Ted: Instead of taking a shotgun approach to exteriors where we offer a whole catalogue of different siding products, and a whole catalogue of different windows and so forth.

And being a jack of all trades, we really narrowed ourselves down and we selected just 1 or 2 brands in each of the different exterior components as far as the sidings and the windows go.

Ryan: That’s really smart.
Ted: And what that has allowed us to do is be experts in those individual products. And by being experts in it, we are effectively educating our customers. We’re moving away from selling and we’re actually educating.

And so that has a way of breaking down barriers with homeowners when we’re in there having a conversation with them about the products and about the strengths. 

And honestly, sometimes about the weakness. When we’re having that conversation in that level and it becomes an educational component, it really helps with the sale.

We are no longer talking about price but we’re talking about quality and meeting the customer’s need. 

So there’s an educational component and there’s also a listening component to that sale.

That’s really by focusing into the niche market and also by focusing on specific products on that niche market, we are becoming experts.

I think that’s what we really do well – we educate.

We also keep our ears open for what’s going on the market. So we understand the overall market and we understand the competitor’s product out there as well.

And what’s going on with that. That’s a very well rounded education component we offer.

Ron: And you’re really specializing on what it is you do install. These are some of the brands you carry: Andersen Windows, James Hardie fiber cement siding, Therma Tru doors. 

And I’m sure, you can become an expert at the installation of those particular building product, manufacturer product, right?

Ted: Yeah. Absolutely, absolutely! We are a James Hardie Associate Contractor.

So not every contractor out there has that distinction. It offers us opportunities for education, installation education, project product education support.

I’d like to think that we know as much about the James Hardie products as our Sales Rep of James Hardie to us knows about the product.

I know that is true about Andersen Windows. Andersen will oftentimes, when we’re out in service operations, particularly complicated service operations, I’ll be out there with the Service Rep (Regional Service Rep from the company) and he’ll be asking me questions. We’ll be banging back and forth trying to figure out how things are working. So we’ve got a unique field application knowledge on these products as well.

And that’s what you get when you get product specific and product focused.

Ryan: What I found Ted is that sales is all about conviction. If you have that conviction, it resonates.

Your prospects can pick up on that. It becomes really hard to have that conviction when you’re a jack of all trades and you represent every product line out there.

When you get to the point where you’re really focused and you’ve decided, “Look I believe in this product”, it comes across in your sales process.

Now you can really speak to it, you can speak to the benefits, the features, the guarantees, the warranties, everything that goes along with that.

You become the experts. And your prospects see that. 

And the guys and girls that tend to be more general and haven’t thought about it aren’t going to be able to compete with somebody like you when you go ahead and go through your sales process.

It’s really an educational process. You are able to spitfire all of those benefits. You know it very, very well. I think that’s important for people to understand.  

When we talk about the focus, a lot of it is going to help in your sales process too and it will allow you to have that conviction.

Ted: Absolutely!  This may not be the best example because Walmart is the leading national retailer. However, when you go into this Walmart store, you get all these different products and nobody really knows anything about what they’re selling.

They’re going in there, walking through there. They have features and benefits. But Walmart’s biggest thing is low prices.

Ron: Exactly, exactly!

Ted: I hate Walmart. I have to be honest. Walmart drives me crazy.  So, those aren’t my customers.

My customers are looking for features and benefits. They’re looking for value. And they’re looking for a company that can help educate them on products.

And help educate them on what’s going with their house. Help educate them and guide them in decisions that they’re making.

We’re really trying to move the conversation away from price and we’re talking about features, benefits and value.  When you go out there, you build a relationship.

Ron: You touched a good point. 

It’s a major decision. These are major projects that you’re building for someone in their home. 

And it’s not everyday that they decide to replace their siding. And they want to talk to an expert. You don’t want to talk to a generalist because as Ryan said that a generalist isn’t going to be as focused.

And to take that point a little bit further, your role a lot of it is sales and marketing. Now if you’re looking into bringing in additional sales people, it’s going to be a lot easier to bring in a sales person and tell them, “Look your focus is going to be on the exterior instead of focusing on kitchens and bath, basements, drywall and painting, right?”

So it’s also being able to make a lot easier for people who come under you.

Ted: Oh yeah, absolutely! 

It’s much more teachable. When we have a focus, you can set a plan. 

One of the hardest things that I have, that I personally struggle with is setting a plan and sticking to it.  I can tell you it has become tremendously easier to set a plan and stick to it when we started to focus on the products that we were offering.

When you are all over the place, it becomes very difficult. There are so many things you should know about or you’re just not good at it.

Ryan: Mistakes are starting to happen and customers aren’t happy. And you’re mad at your people who’s doing the work because they didn’t do it right.

But at the end of the day, if they’re failing, it really comes back to ownership. The reason that they’re failing is that there aren’t processes in place and the business model is too complicated.

When you run into complication, remodeling is an extremely complicated business in itself.  And people make it way more complicated than it needs to be.

And having that focus allows you the ultimate goal which is stepping out of the way and being able to let that thing run by itself and your people can run and do the work that they are supposed to be doing without constantly being in the middle of it.

That only comes with focus and knowing a couple of product lines and then going after it, and attacking that market.

Ron: We’ve done recent interviews with some other experts. Not only does it create chaos, it also affects the bottom line, right?

So if you’re used to doing a siding project, you know exactly how to run it. You know exactly how to run a window job and doors. Then all of a sudden, you get a major kitchen remodel. You may not know exactly the hidden costs that lie there. So it can really affect the bottom line.

And it is a good point too, Ted. Sometimes, it’s hard not to take on especially with a down economy.  But at the end of the day, do you feel like those jobs will end up costing you more?

Ted: Yeah, I do.  I call the interior jobs my heroine.

Ryan: Yeah! It’s just so hard to say no.

Ron: You’ve been addicted since age 12.

Ted: I know. I try to get sober from it. Things are slipping a little bit. You’re looking at the bottom line. I need a little lift me up right now. But in the end, you take them.

And for us, “Oh man! Why did we do that again?”

Honestly, we’re getting a lot better at not doing that. In the end, business is business. You need that bottom line to keep things rolling.

But our focus is on exteriors. We don’t spend a penny towards marketing the interiors.  And we are very careful, very careful about taking on those jobs at this point.

I would say, by the end of winter, this coming winter of 2013, 2014, we’ll be done with interiors.

If there will be interiors for ReVisions Remodeling again, then it will be set up in an entirely different division.

It will be run the same way that the exteriors are run. The only thing they’ll have in common is the master name, but they will be run as separate companies.

Ron: Very good, Ted. A little bit of a segue. What are the biggest lessons you’ve learned while in the business?

Ted: That’s a challenge. I’d say, well, there are two.

One, the biggest lesson I personally learned in a personal level, owning a business, you experience the highest highs and the lowest lows.

Your successes– you’ve done it with your hands, you’ve done it with your own brain, you’ve put everything together. It’s just incredible.

But when it blows up, you’ve also done that. That’s the biggest lesson that I’ve learned. Going to business myself, I’m thinking this is going to be great, I’m going to own my own business.  This is going to be incredible. 

It’s a challenge. It’s going to be really, really hard. But it’s rewarding at the same time.

So I’d say the second biggest lesson in the business itself is that you’ve got to step back from the business every once in a while. Disengage yourself from working in it.  

And you’ve got to work on your business. That has been probably one of my hardest things to do. I understand it in theory and when I put it into practice, it works tremendously well.  But it is very difficult.

Ron: …to put it into practice.

Ted: Yes, it’s very difficult to put into practice. Practically, for small businesses but it’s important to work on the business.  You’ve got to step away from the day to day and look at where you are going and plot.

Look at where you’ve been. Look at where you’re going…and you’ve got to work on the business.  That’s the biggest lesson that I’ve learned. When I execute that, things go a lot smoother.

Ryan: Because you are reinvesting on your assets that’s what you are doing. Anytime you can do that, things really start to take shape and you’re really starting to put together a real business. 

I talk to a lot of people. I ask theM, “Do you have one day a week that you can shut everything off and focus on your marketing, your sales process on your production?

And I think that’s really, really important for most remodeling business – any remodeling business.

You’ve got to take one day a week. You’ve got to. You don’t have a choice.  The fires will always be there. You can find all the reasons in the world to continue to put out those fires and continue to be in the middle of everything.  But you really have to focus and shut things off one day a week.

And say, “Look this is important to the business. This is important to my life. So I can get a break someday. I’ve got to do this.”

Ted: Yes, absolutely!

Ron: That’s a lot easier said than done. But I think it’s crucial. It’s so easy to get caught up in the day to day. From a sales standpoint, I can always tell this story as it happens to me a lot.

Three days out of the office create just a world of hurt when you get back in.

So having that consistency in being able to say, “You know what, NO! I’m going focus today. Today is the day that I’m going to…”

I know it’s hard to turn down that customer, that you are looking to trying to land, but it’s important. You’ve got to try to focus and have that process.

Ted: Yes, absolutely!

It’s especially important if you are making a migration from generalist to niche because if you don’t step back and look at things.

We made a commitment to become niche 2 years ago. We still struggle with that and it’s in the moments that we step back and look at what we’re doing and we re-focus ourselves that’s when we get back on track, heading towards the right direction.

Yeah, that’s vitally important to the business, particularly if you are moving into the niche.

Ron: In believing in those products. You guys install a great product. You do great work in just believing in that, by staying in that.

We’re coming into the end of the show and it’s been some good stuff so far.

What keeps you going each day?

People are asked that question a lot of times and I get a lot of different answers but what is the reason why you can’t fail?

Ted: It’s my family.

I think, probably people would think it’s very cliché. But honestly, it’s my kids and my wife, they are the most important part of my life.

And even when I’m always from them for extended periods of time sometimes for business, travels, so forth.

I know everything I’m doing, it’s for me but it’s also for my family. I hope that someday, my kids decide that they’d like to join me in my business. That is why I do what I do like the sacrifices that I make running a small business.

There are a lot of sacrifices. I know that I’ll get it to the point where the business is running and I’m making adjustments to it and I don’t have much time involved in my business as I do right now.

But there is a sacrifice involved with it right now. Obviously, I’ve got young kids. One’s coming up on 2 and the other one is going to 7.

It’s something I’m working quickly so that I end up not spending so much time in the business and I’m losing my family time.

With what I do, there’s a part that satisfies my ego but really, a big portion of it is for my family.

Ron: As we’ve talked about some of the topics today, it’s really, how do you get there faster, more efficient and more effectively.

And going back to the old ways of that generalist mentality, it helps you focus when you got your family in the fold. And you’re really doing it for them.

It’s going to help you stay on course, to not go back to those old ways.  

Ted: It actually helps, to be honest with you.  It helps making the hard decisions.  Because I think I’m making these decisions not just for me, not just for the business but I’m making these decisions for my family in the future.

Ryan: And you can keep things small. You could make difficult decisions but you clearly have that growth mentality and we can tell that from the first conversation we had.

You wanted more.

And identifying “why did I want more, why do I need more, why do I need to grow” – that is important.

Taking a look at growing is not easy.  It isn’t easy, you’ll run into a lot of obstacles, a lot of challenges. 

I give you all the credit in the world for wanting that. That’s the first step. Just wanting to grow and wanting more. There’s nothing wrong with that.

It’s what we do as business people. I think we owe it to ourselves, we owe it to the people counting on us to keep driving the thing forward, to keep pushing the envelope, and keep going.

Ted: Absolutely!

Ron: When you get to get over the mentality of people thinking they don’t deserve it, that’s BS to me.

If you work hard, set out to do a dream, you have a goal then go after it.  

Ted: I deserve it! I can tell you I deserve it.  I don’t have any problems saying that. I find personal satisfaction in giving back to the community. But definitely, I deserve success.

Ryan: Absolutely!

Ron: That’s awesome.  Ted, any advice? 

Anything that jumps out of you that you’d like to share to some of the business owners listening in?

Ted: I guess, getting back to the conversations we had earlier, I find that focusing your business is really the way to success.

At least, I believe it is for us.  In the end, determination is going to get you your results. 

Quality matters. Be true to what you’re doing. Be true to yourself.  Take care of those people around you. That’s the advice.

Ron: I think that echoes throughout the entire topic here today.

Ted, is there anything we haven’t talked about. Is there anything that you want to get across?

I think we’ve covered a great solution set here. But one thing I know we talked a bit I the past is that quality matters.

Be the best at what you do.  And I really feel that you are one of the most honest and individual full of integrity that I’ve met.

I think it’s really doing business with people you know, like and trust. That’s one of my favorite philosophies.  You echo that sentiment?

Ted: Oh yeah. Absolutely!

Ryan: That even leads to people that you choose to take on as clients. Not everyone who calls you up or submits a webform really needs to be a client of yours.

You really have to take them to a process. Make sure you’re asking the right questions. So you don’t end up with another nightmare on your plate. Because you are hiring and interviewing them as much as much as they’re hiring and interviewing you.

You really have to make sure you choose the right clients and customers for your business. I think a lot of people make that mistake and ends up burning them out.

Ted: From that end, it’s going to be some advice. I could feel very comfortable extending which is be selective with your customers.

You’ve got red flags going up. If you are feeling uncomfortable about something, don’t rush into the deal. And that’s especially difficult when you change your model from where the owner is out selling to when you got a salesman selling working on commission.

But it’s important to know who your customers are. Even do a little background research on them and understanding what kind of person you are dealing with just because you have integrity and you’re going after and approaching the business the proper way you’re willing to do what it takes to make things right particularly when you get a little bit off-course. That doesn’t mean though that your customers are going to hold the same sentiments.

Ron: Sure.

Ryan: Right!

Ted: We ran into one just a couple of months ago and it was just a nightmare.  We’ve been very fortunate that we don’t run into those customers very often but I know from talking with a lot of my friends in the business that they seem to run into them all the time.

Ron: Out of curiosity, what type of project? Was that more of a general project, was that outside the niche?

Maybe you don’t want to get too specific…

Ted: It was exterior replacement.  It was a couple. I believe they had a plan from day 1.  I wasn’t involved in the sales process of the job.

It was one of my salesman. As we got into it, we broke a couple of our rules. They were insistent that we signed the contract on Tuesday and start production on Thursday. 

Ryan: There were all these warning signs.

Ted: Like reading it, every chapter in the book of how to avoid bad customers we did it all.

It was just one of the situations wherein that moment I was working too much inside the business and not on the business.

I was not able to have that holistic view of what’s going on this particular customer before we signed the contract. 

And now that we’re in the contract, it’s just too late. We put the ink on the paper, we are going to live it up to the end of the deal even if our customers don’t live up to the end of their deal. Those are the situations we get into and it was rough. 

I can honestly say we’re on the back side of it. That customer still would like to say that they are not satisfied.

However, I know that that project is absolutely impeccable.

And the only reason they are saying what they are saying is because they had a plan going into this. They didn’t want to pay going into them.

And it wasn’t a big project, that’s the worst part about it. It was a very, very small project.

Ron: But it can drain you and shake your foundation. It can really to start to make you question what your existence really is.

Ted: Absolutely! It was a $2500 project that probably cost me $40000 because of the additional time involved in satisfying the client and in lost opportunities because we were working on satisfying this client.

Ron: Wow! What could have you done now that you have a post-job review or a de-brief and it sounds like you’re on the back side of it.

Outside of stepping more holistically and taking an overview approach, what else could you have done?

What else can you identify there…it’s something that we can make as a topic for our next podcast together.

Ted: It’s something we could get into a little more. But honestly Ron in 5 minutes, I did a simple Google search, turned off a couple of things: understanding the type business that they were involved in. There were a number of red flags and frankly just, we broke some of our barriers. We have firewall that we set up in our sales process.

Ryan: You changed your process for one person.

Ted: Exactly. And we allowed our process to be changed for one person because there was a bigger thing for us to get.

Ron: If I had a nickel for every time I heard that.

Ryan: Ron and I can speak of this. Many times when we give this advice to people, it’s because we live this.  We had to give up a $175000 in recurring revenue for 2 clients who abused us.

It was just awful. We were killing it for him. It was just absolutely dominating but every single meeting was a dog fight.

They were out to fight.  And they were out for blood every time.  

It has come to a point where you’ve really got to know your clients.  You have to look at them as your friends. And if you can’t look at them like that, you’ve got to make some tough choices. We’ve had to make those and it was not easy. But it makes your life better when you work for the people that you really enjoy.

Ted: Absolutely!

My goal is for every customer at the end of the project, we would want to feel comfortable inviting in our house to have dinner.

We would expect they’re going to be comfortable enough with us to invite us into the house for dinner.

Ryan: And sometimes, if there are something’s that off and it doesn’t feel right, pay attention to that. Your gut tells you a lot.  

Process is good but there are some intangible things there that you need to pay attention to the warning signs that are usually there.

Ron: Ted, how can people get a hold of you? To learn more about what your company is and what you offer.

Ted: Well, the best way probably to get a hold of me is through email: ted@revisionsremodeling.net. The office number is 614-5071121.

Either one of these is a good way: website, email address and telephone.

Ron: I know they can go to revisionsremodeling.net and you are servicing the Columbus, Ohio and Central Ohio areas so I really appreciate your coming on with us this morning.

We look forward to having you again. We appreciate your insights and your feedback.

Thank you for coming on PME360 Powering Business Growth Show.

Ryan: Thank you Ted! Really appreciate it.

Ted: Thank you. 
 

Effective and Simple Marketing Ideas to Use in your Remodeling Business with Kyle Hunt of Remodel your Marketing from PME 360

Effective and Simple Marketing Ideas to Use in Your Remodeling Business with Kyle Hunt of Remodel Your Marketing

Ron: Good Afternoon!

Welcome to the PME360: Powering Business Growth Show, where each session we discuss proven ways with our industry experts to help your remodeling and small business grow.

Our guests have proven themselves within their niches and are leaders in their space. Listen in as our experts provide practical tips that you can immediately apply to help empower growth to your small to mid-sized remodeling business.

I’m your host, Ron Rodi, Jr.

Joining me today is the great Ryan Paul Adams. As the founder and CEO of PME360, Ryan and his team help power growth online for small to mid-sized businesses, but with focus and emphasis on the home remodeling space.

PME360 provides effective and affordable software and complete systems that power growth quickly for businesses. Ryan has developed companies online and offline and has helped generate millions of revenues for local businesses for the past 8 years.

Entrepreneur, author, founder of PME360 and founder of RyanPaulAdams.com, Ryan Paul Adams.

Ryan, good afternoon!

Ryan: Hey Ron, wow! Nice intro. It’s a lot to live up to there.

Ron: And we are equally as excited to have on with us today, the founder of Remodel Your Marketing, Kyle Hunt.

Kyle works exclusively with remodelers to implement his proven, practical and effective marketing and sales systems.  It’s easy for business owners to feel stuck, lose their passion for business, to wear too many hats that simply don’t fit, and to lose sleep simply because they can’t figure out how every thing done. Sometimes, they can’t figure how to get any thing done.

Kyle has helped remodeling business owners get out of that pain by installing proven marketing and sales systems into their businesses so they can build a profitable and thriving business that they deserve. Founder of Remodel Your Marketing, help me welcome today Mr. Kyle Hunt.

Kyle, good afternoon!

Kyle: Good afternoon!

Ron: Really appreciate you jumping into our podcast here. Excited to have you. Can you tell us a little bit about Remodel Your Marketing and a little bit about yourself?

Kyle: So, 5 or 6 years ago, I said to my wife Sara, “Honey, you’re a stay at home mom, we got one kid here and another one on the way, it’s a crappy economy we have here in Michigan, and not a lot of money in the bank to fall back on, but I want to quit this nice job that I have in this remodeling company and start my own business.”

And of course, what does she say about it?

Ron: “You’re crazy?”

Kyle: Basically it was that. But she warmed up to the idea. Like I said awhile ago, it was 5 or 6 years ago that I pulled the trigger to start my own business. The reason I did that was I saw a great need out there in the remodeling world for proven, practical, simple and effective marketing.

The whole e-myth where the business is started by somebody who knows how to do something but doesn’t necessarily know how to run the business. I think that’s especially the case: don’t know how to market that business. 

I was working for a small remodeling company in Southeast Michigan and had a good success in improving their sales and marketing, running their showroom. Their bath and kitchen designers can’t get hold of the financial side and couldn’t understand any of that. And I didn’t look back since.

Ron: Fantastic! At what point did you have that AHA! moment?

Kyle: It was partly I was seeking it. I’ve always been dabbling with businesses on the side.  And as my side business of helping different companies with some marketing, some basic website-related stuff (not the type of stuff that Ryan does). 

I kind of look at it from a life standpoint. My family had started to grow, I have four kids now. I kind of needed to make a decision of do I want to hang my own shingle out?

That was part of it. I was really wanting to start my own business. When I was just looking around, getting to know even if it wasn’t remodelers – CPA, financial planners, accounting firms and all kinds of different business, it was so evident that marketing is something they know as important but they don’t get to do. It’s very confusing to them.  

I actually started as a duct tape marketing coach, a disciple of John Jantsch.  When I started my business, I actually became a duct tape marketing coach and I got a good training from John. I did that for a few years before officially being Kyle Hunt, Remodeling Your Marketing.

That was the kind of the core for me.

The AHA! moment was I really wrapped my head around what does an effective simple practical marketing system looked like. I was able to implement it.  And there were a lot of businesses which needed it. And I had a strong desire to be an entrepreneur. So, let’s go.

Ron: I know about what Ryan and I have talked about is leading with sales and marketing and everything else will fall into place.

A lot of times what we see is that these business owners, particularly, the remodeling space, are really concerned about their production.

And I know Ryan, you can speak for this. They look pass the fact that OK, it is not you’ll build it and they’ll come.

It’s really, we’ve got to get these people to come first and then we can go ahead and build it.

And having that sales process is ultra important. I know we’re going to talk a little bit about that Kyle. Looking at your website remodelyourmarketing.com, I know that you guys solve marketing and sales problems for remodelers.

Take us through some sales problems that you see and how remodelyourmarketing.com can help and how you can help as well.

Kyle: What I see so often is that remodelers being so focused on the production side and quite frankly, it’s good. 

They need to be focused on the production side and delivering a great service. The core even before we get into the sales process, fine tune our marketing.

Marketing and sales get a whole lot easier if you are giving your client a remarkable experience. A lot of times, it gets overlooked. Some times, I look at remodeling companies, “Man! We’ve tried this, we’ve tried that. We’ve done this, we’ve done that. Nothing seems to be working!”

And when I dig into the service that they’re providing, do they show up on time? Does the price they quoted is exactly what it is at the end of the project?  Are they getting things done on schedule, and on budget? Are they friendly? Are they fun to work with?

Remodeling is a different animal. We are invading these people’s personal space, their sanctuary, their homes.

At the core of a good and effective remodeling business is giving that client a remarkable experience.  It gets a little easier on the sales and marketing side if that’s happening.

It’s the first thing you need to look at as a remodeling business owner is “Am I giving a remarkable experience?”

And I don’t know if you guys see that and talk about that a lot. But that’s a huge focus of what I’m talking about, even before I talk about websites and sales techniques – that’s got to be there.

Ron: And I know that Ryan’s talked about it a lot, that often, homeowners are pretty much scared to death, right? To hire a remodeling contractor because they heard so many awful horror stories or experiences. So can you put that notion aside and can you deliver a great product and a great experience?

Not only that, can you position yourself as a provider of that awesome experience, as a leader in your market space, can you leverage that expertise?  

And I know Ryan, on RyanPaulAdams.com, we’ve talked a lot about that and how that goes hand in hand.

Ryan: A couple of things I’ve learned early on, I was obsessed with what Kyle was saying about really providing just this crazy, awesome experience for the client. Because you’re right, it’s invasive. You’re going into a home, you’re ripping it apart.

There are a lot of things that if you don’t understand the mentality of the client in providing a great experience, you’re going to fail.

But the mistake that I made is I got too wrapped up in getting that right and I completely ignored really the only purpose of the business, which is marketing and innovation.

And the great Peter Drucker quote, I’m like hung up on it right now, because everything that I do now moving forward, and everything I’m looking at with the businesses I’m helping out, I’m looking at that quote.

It goes, “Because it’s purpose is to create customers, the business has two and only two functions: marketing and innovation. Marketing and innovation produce results, all the rest are costs.”

So getting that mentality into the remodeling industry has been a challenge because traditionally, remodelers are technicians. And that’s how they got started. They really want to focus on the production and then they never quite get out of that mode because it’s so heavily focused.

And I’m not saying you can ignore that because you can’t.  But you really can’t build a business out of it. You’ve probably come into the same idea.

Kyle: For years, I think the downturn from 2008 or 2009 – or whenever it started, for years and years, a lot of remodelers and some of those listening to this probably just survived fine-and-dandy, thank-you-very-much with referrals from clients.

I think what we’ve seen, as we continue in this downturn and as we continue in this cycle is that, that alone will not sustain your business.  We need new avenues and ways to generate business. And here’s where the marketing comes along.

So that base of that customer experience being so pivotal. In the next stage, what is marketing? I mean the definition of marketing if I ask each of you, if I ask five other marketing experts, five remodelers even, I bet I’ll have 10 to 12 different definitions.

The way I define it is simply like this. And this a John Jantsch definition of duct tape marketing:

Getting someone who has a need to know, like and trust you.

I’ve never seen anything more appropriate for a definition. I’ve never seen anything more simple for a definition.

It’s all about building trust.  So that starts right on the first phone call. We need to, we’re talking about our sales process, if you are pulling out a blank sheet of paper the new call comes in, you’re not doing it right.

“Kyle, I’ve been doing this for years. I’ll ask the questions. I’ll get the info I need.”

But, did you get their email address so you can send them a follow up email that has the cost versus value report that has what they could expect on their first meeting document, that links them to your website in your homepage.

“Oh no! I forgot the email address.”

Kyle: Ok! So we need a system. It could just be a simple project discovery sheet that asks a lot of those questions, that you’re going to do consistently.

This marketing system and this sales system. It starts on the initial phone call. Every part of your marketing needs to be systematic or else it’s not going to get done. That’s a huge part of that too.

Ryan: Say that one more time so it sticks in the minds of everybody.

Kyle: Which part of it? It was all brilliant.

Ryan: Exactly. It’s all brilliant! It’s all about creating that system like what you said, even having that one piece of paper for everything that you’re going to do, that’s going along this line.  It needs to be written down and it needs to be consistent.

Because the goal is, as the business owner, you shouldn’t be the one doing all this forever.

Kyle: Everybody desires that. Very few remodelers that I talk to, when I say, “Do you want to be more systematic and consistent with what you’re doing?”

They’d say, “Absolutely!”

Whether it’s the production side, the marketing side, whatever the case is.

But where they get caught up is actually at implementing that.

That’s a huge thing I’m always talking about. We could talk on this, specifically on ideas. We could probably come up with 50 wham-bam, sweet marketing ideas for the remodeling business but that’s not very helpful for the average remodeler. 

Something I’m always talking about, I think for the average remodeler who’s listening to this – you don’t lack marketing ideas. From the remodeling magazines (Remodeling Advantage, Professional This), 18 different Linkd-in groups, Remodeler Show in Chicago and I’m going to speak in IBS in January.

There are all kinds of people you can talk to. If you got my email address, if you got Ryan’s email address, there are all kinds of different ideas flying through. 

We do not lack ideas. What we lack is prioritizing, figuring out what’s most important. Making sure that we’re not working on something that’s not going to produce when there’s something even more important sitting in front of you.

And secondly, implementing it. I see so often a dozen half-implemented ideas versus one fully implemented idea. And the one idea just kicks, blows the other ones out the water. 

Making sure that whatever idea, whatever you feel is the best, whatever you know is the best, you need to focus on. Seeing it through completion.

That’s what separates the top 10% of remodelers I see out there, that I work with, that I get to know from the bottom 90%. They get things done.

The encouraging thing is, there’s no silver bullet, there’s no a magic marketing ball. It’s about running a successful remodeling business. It’s about doing a lot of little things right.

Ryan: Beautiful! You got it.

Ron: What we run to a lot is that the intention is often  there. But a lot of times, these guys can’t – I mean, the industry as a whole, the business owners as a whole, it’s hard to get out of the way. 

Because you get so caught up. Maybe I’m going to turn this into a question, Kyle and Ryan, what is the answer to:

“Look, I just don’t have the time to put this together.”

Kyle: Here’s my question to answer your question, “How much time don’t you have?

You know when somebody says I don’t have the time to do this, I don’t have the time to do that – well, how much time do you have?

Because I think the bigger problem is and I see this consistently is, if a remodeler says, I don’t have enough time, here’s 8 hours – totally uninterrupted! 

Come into this imaginary world with me for a second, 8 hours of uninterrupted time. You focus on your marketing and sales efforts. What are you going to do? The answer that usually comes back is “I’ve never really thought about that. I don’t know what I should do first. I don’t know what’s most important.”

Everybody’s so overwhelmed with ideas and things they perceived and maybe they need to do that they just reverts to that “I just don’t have any time.”

And the reason they’ve got no time is that they’re overwhelmed. They can either find the time, they can hire an intern to help them, they can hire somebody like myself, they can hire somebody like Ryan. 
There are all kinds of solutions to this perceived time issue.

Ron: I think often the answer is what is the cost of not doing it. If you continue to do it the way you’ve been doing it, if you continue not to make time, what is the cost of not doing it? What is the cost of doing it the wrong way?

Kyle: Ryan, what are your thoughts on it?

Ryan: I think there are just so many great resources out there to help small businesses get marketing done. And get it done properly, more effectively than what you can do.

Even hiring one person. Because a lot of these things that need to get done in marketing are typically pretty specialized.

And yeah, you can get good at a couple of them. But you can never be great at all of them.  So building that core team around very specific roles. So if you’re going to go out and try to do this, my advice is to really look at, okay a web designer is not also a marketer or a direct mail person isn’t also going to specialize in social media.

So whatever you are trying to implement for a tactic, your really have to look at building a team of specialists that can do certain things.

I just find that when you do that, the results are magnified even more.

Kyle: No doubt. And frankly, before you get into the tactical side, you know – what should I do, should I be advertize here or in Google ad or this website, this and that, make sure that you can answer these questions to me very clearly,

Who is in your done proposal for, haven’t signed bucket?

Who are the people you’ve done proposal for in the last 6 months that haven’t signed with you. Can you very quickly and easily tell me who those people are? And if so, who should you be following up with? 

Can you tell me how many leads you’ve generated this year? Your closing percentage? Which leads have you generated are you closing at the best percentage? How many leads you did generate from your website?

You guys have heard this a thousand times, everybody listening to me have heard this a thousand times. I would say probably about 5% of remodelers can actually produce that info for me.

But as we all know, 63% of all statistics are made up.

Ryan: Yeah, it’s true.

Kyle: It gets down to the fundamentals. Every marketing dollar that we spend needs to be accountable.

Unless you have a million bucks.

Ron: And we’re spending money to drive leads to our websites. We’re spending money on advertising. We’re spending money on marketing, we’re spending on trade shows. The leads you that have, you’re paying for those.  

So you can go out, develop a process to close more of them, to nurture them more appropriately, to pay more attention to your process, to have a better follow-up mechanism, to be able to go into that bucket of proposals that you thought were dead.
Listen, 3 phone calls and 3 emails don’t work anymore. Do you have a system to send out a clean, professional looking folder?

“Thank you for allowing us to bid on the restructure or whatever it is of your home. This is a little bit more about our company.”

I think having a consistent process there rather than saying, “We’ve got a lead. They don’t want to do it, so on to the next one.”

That one call close is dead. That’s not there.

But hey if you can do that, then I want to hire you.

Ryan: One of the things that absolutely blows me away with, most businesses do this or are guilty of this is that you’ll take the time to do that consultation and then you’ll invest a week into doing an estimate – a free estimate for them without asking for anything which to me is insane but a lot of people still do it.

And the one phone call or one email is all that you’re going to put into it to follow up. That’s insanity! That’s crazy! 

I couldn’t eat. I can’t even imagine putting that much effort into something and I did it for years. And I completely looked back and just wanted to kick myself in the face.

Ron: Well, that’s because everyone gets caught up in I have got to get the proposal and I’ve got an opportunity for business when you’re not kind of seeing the forest through the trees.

So take the 6 hours that you worked on the estimate, cut that in half and take those hours to put together a nice piece of literature or collateral that you can send out or do other productive things that can follow up on that prospect.

Ryan: Or doing something that’s even more innovative, like Kyle we’ve seen a post of you, of a kick ball. Perfect! I don’t know if that strategy worked.

Kyle: Yeah it works.

Ryan: Sending something 3-dimensional is a little bit more in your face and it just shows them that you care, that you are innovative. Grab their attention.  And just sending something as a letter, send something bigger, send something more.

Kyle: So, I’ll hit on something that relates to the sales process that you’re touching on.

The first one is qualifying.  You are qualifying a lead. If we talk about having a system – phone call, to be asking questions, I see a direct correlation between people that say, “I’m always competing on price, I’m always competing on price.”

That’s all they care about and when I ask the question, “How long do you spend on the initial phone call with a prospect?”

I usually hear, “A couple of minutes. I get their info, set an appointment and we’re good to go.”

There’s a direct correlation with that. And I hear a lot of remodelers who say, “I don’t compete on price. I find my clients. I work with my ideal clients.”

And I ask them how much time they spend on the initial phone call and they’d say 20 to 30 minutes.

The first thing I say is, “What? What are you doing in 20 to 30 minutes?” 
And sometimes I get a remodeler and I say, “You’re not allowed to hang up the phone until it’s been at least 10 minutes. Just to try to force them to think of things to talk about. But there are all kinds of things to talk about especially if you set the expectation that hey do you have 10 to 15 minutes? I really want to get to know you and your project.”

Get into things like asking them what they’re looking to invest in the project. You can do that. It’s okay to do that. It’s not for your benefit so you can spend up to the penny but it’s to help them understand if they’re in the ballpark.

Help them. Educate them on budget. So there’s a whole lot about qualifying that we need to be doing during our sales process. That’s not necessarily too innovative but it’s rarely done.

Secondly, you hit on doing estimates for free. It’s such a divided subject in our industry – this whole idea of doing some type of a retainer. Whether it’s a designer retainer or just a fee for all the energy, time and effort we put into a putting a proposal together.

You don’t have the time to chase leads that are not going to turn into clients. Your most valuable asset as a remodeling business owner is your time.

And like what you said, if you are spending time, if you are wasting 6 hours chasing a bid, these are 6 hours you’re not getting back.

You can! There’s a lot of your peers, the top 10% in our industry do this in some form or fashion. There are a lot of ways to skin it.

Charge some type of a designer retainer. Get them to get some type of skin in the game – even if it’s a $100. I don’t care what it is.

I have some clients charging $2000 and other clients charge $200 for it.  Just try some type of designer retainer. 

And then, thirdly, that you’ve mentioned Ryan is lumpy mails.

What I call it is sending something in the mail to interrupt. The example you’ve given is sending a ball in the mail.

And the ball says, “Had a ball!”

It’s one of the kick balls that kids play with. And in that case, the prospect had a couple of kids.  Literally, it’s get mailed. Just sitting out there, the address and everything. And the stamp put in the outside of it.

It that doesn’t make them chuckle, if it doesn’t make them think that these guys have a sense of humor and carries a good message too, then that’s not your client anyway, if somebody’s not going to have a little fun in that.

It’s okay to have a little fun in your marketing.

Ryan: It doesn’t have to be so serious for sure.

Ron: That’s very true.

And one of the things you’re going back to Kyle is that first step, that qualifier.

It’s spending 20 to 30 minutes to really, it’s not that you’re talking about your business, you’re talking about your prospect. What it is they want?  

Get into the emotional reasons behind it.  You’re redoing the kitchen and it’s okay to ask, “Hey what’s going on that’s caused you to do this?”

Maybe it’s the wife that doesn’t like the kitchen. Maybe they’re getting ready to sell their house. There are always reasons behind it.  And that conversation is not about the business owner, it’s about the prospect. And you really have to state that.

As you’ve mentioned, “Do you have 15 minutes, we’d really like to go through. We really want to find out more about what it is you’re looking to do. Can you tell me a little bit more why it is you want to do what you want to do?”

Kyle: It’s not rocket science. It’s actually very practical. But at the same time, it takes practice.

A lot of times, the reason that remodelers do not ask about what people are looking to invest in the project, whether you call it target investment or whatever. The reason they don’t bring that up is,

Ron: They’re scared.

Kyle: Exactly!

They’re scared about it.  They’re afraid. 

Just do a little bit of practice. I don’t call it role playing as everybody hates role playing.

I call it batting practice. Even the best hitter in the game, and his name is what?

Ron: Miguel Cabrera.

Kyle: Thank you!

Yes, Miguel Cabrera is the best hitter in baseball.

Even Miguel takes batting practice everyday. So who are we as salespeople, as business owners to think that we don’t need to practice?

With a little bit of practice you can get really good at that initial conversation.  It will feel a little bit more comfortable with you.  That’s what growth looks like. That’s what becoming a better business owner, a better sales person looks like.

And it does take some work but it’s not earth shattering stuff.

My wife likes to kid around with me and I remember quite specifically. It was a while ago that she did this. She was asking me how my day was because she was being nice. And I told her that I was dealing with this client or that client.

And her response was, “Man you just do really practical, really simple, common sense type stuff.”

And some people might say it’s kind of rude of her to say that buy hey it’s what I do. Because, that’s what this stuff is – it’s common sense, it’s practical.  You’ve heard the ideas before. It’s about implementing them. It’s about prioritizing what ones to do first.

Ryan: I have a question. Do you find that you can help people who don’t have a burning desire to succeed?

Do you feel like you can still give them the tools and they can still be successful if they don’t have that fire in their belly?

Kyle: It’s tougher, right?  I practice what I preach as well. Similar to remodeling business owners where you started out, you probably took pretty much anything and everything that came along and as you mature as a business owner, you start to be selective of the type of clients you’re talking to.

Usually, at this point for me anyway and specifically for my business, those people don’t call me.

In the first place, if they’re calling me, they have some type of desire to fix something. 

At the same time, if they’re calling me and say, “I need you to fix this. I don’t have the time to fix it but I need you to fix it.” 

It won’t work wither because if you’re not invested in learning this and working alongside it, and trying to improve yourself, it’s tough.

It’s definitely tough if you don’t have that burning desire to get this stuff done.

Ryan: Yeah, I think you hit it on the head, too. These business owners really have to get good at delegating versus abdicating. Really, two different things.

I think a lot of business owners don’t understand that core difference.

Ron: I think there’s a huge resistance to change – within certain industries especially those who have been around 25 to 35 years or longer. There’s definitely that resistance to change.

But I think, those who are listening to this realize that it’s really not that complex like you’ve mentioned Kyle. It’s not that, you are not moving mountains here. It’s practical like what you said. I like that.

Kyle: That’s encouraging, right? It’s encouraging to know that. And that’s a fact.

I mean Ryan, the stuff that you guys do when you get into the search engine optimization and some of the more technologically-focused and complex stuff. Yeah, that’s getting complex. 

But that’s where, when you talk about delegating versus trying to do it by yourself. There are things you delegate and there are things you can handle in-house.

You’re talking about delegating and this morning I was talking to one of my clients up here in Michigan. The lady that runs the business, she has 2 to 3 other people and she’s a go, go, go. 

She’s like, “Oh yeah! I’ll do that. I’ll do that. I’ll do that.”

And about the third time she said “I’ll do that”, I said, “I don’t want you doing any of the things you said you want to be doing. We are delegating that to Jen. We are delegating that to Roger. We are delegating that to Carol. You are not going to do any of those. I don’t want you to do any of those.”

But as entrepreneurs, so often we want to do, do, do – when all you need to have is a team around you.  There is a lot of things, as practical as it is, the reason a lot of this isn’t done is because we don’t know how to delegate or we don’t have the right help or legitimately, there is a time reason.

Ryan: Lay the direction. What we should be doing is taking more time as a business owner to then find, okay this isn’t my role. This isn’t my job to do this. 

Let me lay the strategy or jot down a few things about what I want done. And we should be looking for people – outsourcers, employees, other people to get this stuff done and managing the process versus doing everything.

I just find a lot of remodeling businesses to get so caught up with I have to do this, I have to do that.  You don’t! You really don’t! 

I mean, we’re here. Great people like you out there who can help and there are a lot of resources out there that can help.

Ron: Kyle, tell us. It sounds like you are a pretty motivated person. It’s enjoyable having a conversation with you. You are uplifting. You are definitely enthusiastic. It sounds like you really want your clients to succeed. What is it that gets you going every day?

Kyle: I like what I do. And I think you are hearing that. What you’re hearing is pretty authentic. If I wasn’t enjoying what I do, I’d probably not be talking nearly as passionately about it.

And I got four kids and a stay at home wife – that gets me up and going every morning, to make sure I’m producing and taking care of things.

But from the client’s standpoint, when I’m in my right frame of mind and thinking about my business, I think as a business owner, we worry about a revenue every month.

Like, do I have enough for this, enough for that.  When I’m clicking, I’m not really worried about that. When I’m focused and thinking about my clients, I’m always clicked up when I see a remodeling company that used to do it this way, we worked on it, they implemented this.

And they pick up the phone or they send me an email, “Kyle, I did this and here’s what happened.”

The excitement is there. And I feed off that.

So it’s the little victories like that.

I have a new client in California or SoCal as what they call it.  I think we’ve met for only a month and he was somebody who is a perfect ideal client for me – from a size stand point and what he needed done.

And we’ve been working on steadily improving his sales process, his approach, getting some systems in place.

His wife was actually walking by and he talked about her a couple of times and I said, “Come here. Come here.”

She started talking about how she’s seen a big difference in my client over the last month.  And she really likes what he’s doing. He seems so much more focused. He seems so much more energetic.

And he really seems to have a clear direction of where he is taking his business, whereas before he was just trying everything. He was frustrated, he was stressed because he was overwhelmed with what he needed to do. 

And that, when you get down to the nitty-gritty of it, when I’m able to change the way that a husband and wife interact if ever I’m going to go that far, to change the stress level, the clarity the business owner has about his business. That he feels in control of his business. That’s probably the Taj Mahal of happiness for my work and what I’m doing.

Ron: That’s awesome!

Kyle: That’s deep!

Ryan: You are improving more than just the business. You’re improving lives.  We believe in the same thing.

Kyle: It sounds so cliché right?

Ryan: it does. But it’s true.  And if you didn’t believe that, you wouldn’t be doing what you’re doing. Same here, we believe that.

Ron: I’ve got impressive, outstanding, remarkable, notable, superior, distinguished.

I think distinguished is the new adjective that we’re going to use.

Ryan: The distinguished Kyle Hunt.

Kyle: My two-day stubble and my need for a haircut don’t make me look distinguished now.

Ron: Kyle, we really appreciate you coming on. Is there anything else you want to add today for some of the people who are listening in? Any other advice that we haven’t talked about that you want to get across?

Kyle:  If I were to just repeat some of the key things, marketing – it’s simply this:

Getting anyone who has a need to know, like and trust you
.
If you are overwhelmed with ideas, pick one. Just pick one marketing thing that you’ve been wanting to do or one sales improvement and figure out what your next step is for that. 

What would be, if you wanted to implement this? 

You’ve got to figure out the 18 steps or the 5 steps or how many steps that you need to get it done. But what is the first step that you need to take – and do that.

When you make one little improvement or a little progress that starts to build, that starts to motivate you and you see one little success and it gives you energy to go after the next.

I’d do that and I’m looking at this quote earlier.  I have this quote on my desk, it’s from Jim Rohn, the personality development guy.

He said, the best advice I ever came across on the subject of concentration is “Wherever you are, be there.”

And I knew that all the time. I’m always hopping to this, hopping to that.

But it’s very true when we’re thinking about our business, about our client interactions, when we’re thinking about our marketing or sales or whatever it is, our personal relations or anything.

Wherever you are, be there!

That’s a good business and a good marketing advice, too.

Ron: I’ve got to take that.  I’ve got to listen to that personally. I have to apply that on the weekend.

Kyle: As silly as it sounds, the first time that hit me, was when I was with Piper who’s our first girl (we have a boy, girl, boy, girl). She’s five now.

I was sitting there, giving her a bath and she’s talking to me and I was totally oblivious to the fact that she was talking to me. My mind was thinking about work. My mind was thinking about this, my mind was thinking about that.

And on that night, I read that quote and I was convicted! For some reason that really sit in my mind.

This was my 2-year old daughter and she’s asking me questions, “Daddy, Daddy this. Daddy, Daddy that.”

And I’m not even in the room. I think it happens a lot of times when we’re working with clients, when we’re working with our employees, when we’re working with our spouses, whatever the case is.

That really hits home.  The best advice I came across with on the subject of concentration is “Wherever you are, be there.”

That’s the parting shot.

Ron: The power of engagement. Kyle, how can folks get a hold of you?

Kyle: My website is remodelyourmarketing.com. My email is kyle@remodelyourmarketing.com. My office line is (810) 225-9036. If you go on to a remodeling magazine, you’ll probably see some blogposts and you’ll see me here and there.

But go to my website and grab a few of the free resources that I have. And that will put you on my email list. I won’t bug you too much but I send a lot of tips and info.

It would be a good place to go and get more info.

Ron: There are some great templates on it as well.

Ryan, do you have any parting gifts?

Ryan: I’d just like to say I definitely recommend getting into Kyle’s site, reading his stuff, getting his free resources and the emails he’s sent are awesome!

I read them every time he sends them out. It’s good stuff there!

Ron: Fantastic! Kyle and Ryan, thank you for joining us on the PME360 Powering Business Growth Show. We look forward to future endeavors and conversations.

Kyle: Thanks for having me.

Ryan: Thank you, Kyle.